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Transcript

Kevin: And welcome back to another episode of Nutrition for Noobs. Michelle, good to see you. How are you doing?

Michelle: I'm doing great, Kevin. I've got a beautiful matcha uzucha that I'm sipping on right now, Japanese ceremonial grade matcha, because it felt just appropriate for today's episode that I should be sipping matcha.

Kevin: It's a fancy episode, I guess.

Michelle: Yes. Well, then the episode doesn't have to do with matcha, but it has to do with a food that some people love and some people love to hate.

Kevin: Oh, I wonder what side I'm on.

Michelle: And it's, you know, inspired from Japanese cuisine.

Kevin: OK, well, don't keep us in suspense. What is this? What is this dividing food? And let's see if we can bring everyone on to the loving side of it.

Michelle: We want to talk about tofu. We want to demystify tofu. And if you love to hate it, then I apologize, because I think all of us, I've said this before, we've all had an unfortunate tofu experience, to say the least. And you know, there's sometimes, you know, it's by our own fault that we didn't know what we were buying. And there's many different forms of tofu and we picked the wrong one for what we're wanting to do. And it ends up being gross.

Kevin: We've all been there.

Michelle: Some well-intended restaurant tried to incorporate tofu and they did it badly.

Kevin: Or they did it really well and then you go home and try to recreate that at home. This is this is purely hypothetical. I'm not speaking from personal experience. Absolutely never am I speaking from personal experience. But you might, you know, have someone randomly who went to a restaurant, had some delicious tofu, went home, tried to do the same thing. And hypothetically, it was absolutely disgusting. And then that put this person like in the haters club for a very, very, very long time.

Michelle: So hypothetically, even though this isn't based on your experience.

Kevin: Of course not. No, not me. No, no.

Michelle: What type of tofu was it that you had the disaster with hypothetically asking for a friend?

Kevin: Exactly. I believe they said it was a softer tofu. It wasn't silken, but it was probably like soft or medium. And the way the restaurant dish this was this was years and years and years ago, I was actually in university. It was in Ottawa and it was soft tofu, but there was a nice little crispy crust on it. So it was crispy on the outside, very flavorful. And then you bit into it and it wasn't watery, but it was just nice and soft. And so I went home and tried to recreate this. And I, you know, I these were the old days before, you know, the Internet recipes. So I went to a library and took out cookbooks and found cookbooks that had something similar.

Michelle: You're so intense.

Kevin: And then I, well, I was in university. I had time on my hands, you know, it was pre-Internet people. You got to remember what it was like. You couldn't just click on all recipes and come up with like 15,000 different tofu recipes at the click of a button.

Michelle: Some of our younger listeners are going to think you're like 90 years old.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Oh, let me tell you, when I was young, this is how we used to do the recipes. So anyways, I went out, I found a few recipes. I tried to triangulate my recipes because I couldn't remember exactly what it was called or anything. So I found a couple of recipes that all seemed to have the same thing. Went out and bought some tofu. Tried to recreate this. And it was just a mess. The squares weren't square. They were all, you bit into it and you, first off, it's completely flavorless. And then you burned your mouth because there's so much moisture inside and the moisture was super hot. You burned your mouth. It was flavorless. And it was just this goop. So honestly, that turned me off tofu for decades.

Michelle: And have you since redeemed yourself?

Kevin: I have. Because I have found an amazing recipe and an amazing process, which I absolutely love. So it has redeemed itself.

Michelle: So hang on to that. I do want to talk, I want to talk about our recipes, but yeah. So yours was the soft tofu example. I had a horrible experience with silken because I honestly, I just went and thought, oh, I'm going to try this tofu thing. I didn't really know what tofu was.

Kevin: Tofu's tofu.

Michelle: And I didn't know like back then about the different kinds of tofu. So I didn't understand the buying a different type for a different purpose and like different, different textures, different culinary applications. So I just bought the silken because it sounded nice. Ooh, silken. That sounds nice. It sounded more bougie somehow.

Kevin: Silk. Oh, exactly. Yeah. It's the high quality tofu.

Michelle: And it was not the appropriate one to use for whatever I was doing. So like, and it was, it was gooey and it was slimy and gross. And like, I think I was trying to toss it in the stir fry and I was like, oh my gosh, I, like, I didn't know what the problem was, but, but then, you know, you know, same as you, like years later, I have more experiences and I realized, oh, but I didn't have, and you know what? Come to think of it, that probably was pre-internet. So I, I didn't have any easy way to search for how to or anything. So I was just being adventurous. I picked up this really cool book when I was in Pasadena last year at a, let me tell you people, used bookstores are the best place to find like great cookbooks and things like that because there's a lot of people who intend to cook and they don't.

Kevin: Yeah. Or it's a gift or something and they never crack it open.

Michelle: Yeah. This was like a barely used book and it's called This Can't Be Tofu, 75 Recipes to Cook Something You Never Thought You Would and to Love Every Bite. The author is Deborah Madison. It has some really very, very practical, easy preparations for tofu that you can use again and again in different techniques. So that inspired me for this episode, but also I made a recipe for lasagna. This recipe has a delicious layer of ricotta made out of tofu.

Kevin: Oh, cool.

Michelle: That makes all the difference in the world. And oh my gosh, Kevin, the first time I ever made this, which was during the pandemic sometime.

Kevin: As most of us were trying out new recipes at that point, you know, sourdough and you name it.

Michelle: Yeah, I know. We all became culinary geniuses with very clean closets. Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: It was, I couldn't believe it wasn't real ricotta.

Kevin: Oh, wow.

Michelle: It's such a good recipe and it's so simple. And you know, when we get to the recipe part, I will share that as well, but that really inspired this. And then the other thing, I don't know if you have a great restaurant around where you, you must. I mean, my gosh, you're in like a really cool neighborhood in Toronto, but we have a little place in London called Zen Garden and they have a lot of Asian vegetarian, well, they are an Asian vegetarian restaurant, so they've got a lot of dishes with using different forms of soy, tofu, but also soy fritters and other things like that, that really opened my eyes. But it was my first inkling, like, wow, like soy is actually a really, really versatile legume. Sure. Yeah. And when you can, you can do a lot of things with it in a lot of forms and a lot of textures and it was surprising to me. So that kind of became a place that we like to go periodically when we wanted to go out.

Kevin: See, my, my, my go-to place for a tofu, it's actually a tofu dessert that I love is a small Japanese izakaya near us. And they do a silken almond tofu, you'd almost call it a pudding, I don't know it, but it's mostly just silken almond tofu within a thin layer of, it's a bit of like a parfait, I guess. And it's got a thin layer of a not very sweet plum jam. And then it's got some more of the silken almond tofu. And then it's just topped with, you know, a very simple, like a pistachio layer on top, crushed pistachios, super simple, but refreshing. Like it's just a nice, subtle almond flavor, wonderful texture. It's just so simple and, but delicious.

Michelle: I love it. I think I've seen a recipe for that. And another thing that I've never done, but I've seen it often is using silken tofu in your smoothie as another way to boost the protein content of your, of your smoothie and, and thickening and whatnot. So those are, oh, you're making me hungry now, but yeah, so.

Kevin: Me too, I want that dessert.

Michelle: Well, why don't you make it?

Kevin: Maybe you will after that, after we record this. Every single time I have it, I always say, I need to recreate this at home. But honestly, I think a little part of me is terrified of recreating a restaurant dish with tofu based on that university experience.

Michelle: Oh, you still have PTSD?

Kevin: Exactly. Tofu PTSD based on that.

Michelle: Well, we are here to try to heal the, start the healing process of your tofu PTSD people. And those of you that are already all on board, haven't had a traumatizing tofu experience and you know, now we're going to tell you what not to do.

Kevin: Yes. Just to reinforce those good habits.

Michelle: So let's start with a little, just a little bit of like, what is tofu? I mean, I'm sure everybody knows nowadays, but you know, back in the, in the nineties when I had this tofu trauma, I didn't actually really even know what I was buying.

Kevin: Yeah, no, it was very niche back then. It wasn't a common ingredient to have. You had to go to a special store to, to get to it. It wasn't just at your local grocery store, run of the mill, you had to go to a health food store.

Michelle: Yeah. I think I got it in a health food store. I'm trying to remember where did I get it?

Kevin: You had to search it out. Like you had to really want it and really try to find it. Like it wasn't easy.

Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So anyway, it's obviously made with soy and the, the, the process of making tofu, I'm not going to go into that, but my understanding is that it's, it's similar to making cheese. I've seen it on YouTube where you can get a, you know, use your Vitamix and a cheese cloth and you soak the beans and you know, you go through this little process and these lovely people on YouTube make it look so easy. Yeah. I'm not personally interested in going that deep.

Kevin: I'll just buy it at the store. It's so readily available now. I'll just buy it. Thank you very much.

Michelle: Yeah. Although I will say after researching a little bit for this episode, I'm very eager to go to Japan town in Portland, Oregon, because apparently the oldest continuously operating tofu company in the U S is there. Really in Portland. Yeah. And it's called Ota Tofu founded in 1911 by Seizu Ota. And it has been producing since 1911.

Kevin: Wow. They know what they're doing.

Michelle: Yeah. It's still a family operated business today, apparently. And I'm in the Portland area and I think you can get it throughout the state of Oregon, but I don't, I don't know how widely it's distributed in the U S we certainly don't get it here in Canada, but apparently it's really super close, if not identical to what you would get if you were in Japan when they're making it very authentically, because I mean, I did a little bit of a search. All the companies seem to say that they use like traditional recipe, but somehow I doubt that they taste the same.

Kevin: Well in March, we're going to Japan. That's right. On a family holiday. So I can try some and report back to you.

Michelle: Yes. You'll have to, because my understanding is the Japanese traditional method of making tofu does have a much more pleasant, like it has a distinct flavor. That's a little bit beany and that the, you know, the, the, the texture is different than what we might get in the grocery store. And I also read that it's like the North American market almost intentionally makes their tofu more bland or neutral to, to, to try to not have any taste. Right.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: I don't think there's a goal of doing that for a more authentic version. Yeah. Okay. So that's like in, we'll just start there. That's the oldest company in the U S in Canada. We do have not as old as the one in Oregon, but we have Sunrise Soy Foods in Vancouver, BC. That is one of the earliest and longest running tofu manufacturers in Canada. And in fact, we can get Sunrise Soy Foods where I live in our local grocery store.

Kevin: I've seen it all over our grocery stores. Like that's the one brand that I could probably name that I've seen, or I can visualize their logo right now. So I've seen it a ton.

Michelle: Yeah. It's been operating apparently since 1956 by Leslie and Susan Joe. So again, another authentic family operated, you know, I would think Kevin that you would probably, I don't know if you have a Japan town in Toronto. I've never heard of that, but you definitely have a Chinatown.

Kevin: Yeah. I live two blocks from one of the, there are actually three Chinatowns in Toronto. I live about a few blocks from one of them. The best one I'd like to think. There is a small Japan town in Toronto. There's a larger one in the suburbs, but I don't get out there very often, but there's a small one downtown, but it's very loose. Like it's not particularly centralized and it's more. There's a few, there's a small concentration of a few stores within a couple of square blocks near the downtown core, but it's not very.

Michelle: Well, I wonder if any of those areas would have a little mom and pop that is making their own. I'm sure there is. Historically, I found this so interesting because I have the same experience, whether I'm researching tea or researching acupuncture, Chinese medicine, whatever I found, everything starts in China and then spreads to Japan through the spread of Buddhism.

Kevin: That makes sense.

Michelle: And tofu was, was very much the same. It started in a Han dynasty, China, tofu production began and the legend has it that it's attributed to royalty.

Kevin: They take credit for everything, whatever.

Michelle: There's a lot of scholars debate. Yeah, I know. In, in, in the tea world, you know, everything, you know, is, is attributable to this one emperor and the, you know, Chinese medicine, the yellow emperor, like there's one emperor gets credit for everything, but they're the ones who, who get all the history books written about them.

Kevin: So it's just easier to attribute it to them.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, but you know, eighth century Japan, which has clear overlap with Tang dynasty China. So Tang dynasty is between like 618 and 907 common era. And Japan's Nara period is like between 710 and 794 common era. So in that overlap of time, tofu became popular in China and Buddhist monks at the, during that same, you know, general period returned from China, like Japanese Buddhist monks returned from China and introduced tofu because, you know, this is what we found with tea culture as well. Everybody thinks that, you know, the trade routes and the, the, the tea horse road and the silk road was all about trading textiles and goods and tea, but it wasn't, they were also trading ideas and culture. And food is a big part of culture, right?

Kevin: Of course. It's massive.

Michelle: And to think about it, they didn't have a lot to do other than study and talk and pontificate and do art and calligraphy and poetry and all those things. Right. And eat three times a day. Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: So, so as they're like, they're eating so often and they're cooking so often as they're mingling on the silk road, of course, they're going to look, oh, what are you cooking? Oh, here's what I'm cooking. And they exchange ideas. It does. It makes a ton of sense.

Michelle: Yeah, it does. So like, like originally it looks like it was kind of an elite, almost sacred, like something you prepared for ceremonies. And then in later years, it spreads to the common people. So by the Song dynasty, China, which is after Tang dynasty, tofu's popularity surged and became more widespread. And similarly in Japan.

Kevin: So it started in the 800s, common era or so. So then how did it get to Europe and North America? I assume just more travel and and trade routes and such.

Michelle: Yeah, I think it came with the immigration of people. So in certainly in Canada and the States, it looks like it was introduced mainly through Asian immigration. And it kind of was contained in those Asian communities, which is probably why we see these original companies in like the Asian communities. But in the States, I think what really put tofu on the map culturally was the publication of the Book of Tofu in 1975 by William Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi. Basically, Shurtleff was a researcher and he and this other fellow went back to Japan to research all of the methods and actually write this primer book on the Book of Tofu, which, you know, got national attention and gave tofu national awareness and inspired a lot of the early tofu entrepreneurs. Yeah, and then I'm not going to go into this, but there's kind of a well, I think it's funny. There's kind of a funny bit in tofu history where it sort of became part of like hippie commune culture. And there's like one of the one of the most famous hippie communes, I think it's still actually maybe exists still in some form today called the Farm in Tennessee.

Kevin: OK, yeah, yeah. I think I've heard of that.

Michelle: That started in California, but the only it started in California, but then they moved to Tennessee because they pooled their money to buy this property and they could get more land in Tennessee.

Kevin: Land is too expensive in California. It still is.

Michelle: It still is.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: The long and the short of it is, though, that some of the notable tofu manufacturing companies today were started by people that were part of that farm commune.

Kevin: OK.

Michelle: Apparently like a bunch of the brands in the United States. So I thought I thought that that was kind of interesting. Yeah.

Kevin: And that makes sense because a lot of the hippie movement was bringing to the mainstream this idea of vegetarianism and getting back to the land with sustainable farming. So that makes sense that tofu would be the main protein alternative for vegetarians at the time. And now you've got this cookbook and it's just sort of, you know, creates a bit of a momentum. Yeah, tofu movement makes sense.

Michelle: You're absolutely right in this mindset of ethical vegetarianism, of not harming animals, which later developed into what we now call veganism. But vegan is a fairly recent term, actually. They were originally just called vegetarians.

Kevin: Right, exactly.

Michelle: But then we evolve and further specify.

Kevin: Well, because there's a bunch of nuances to, you know, vegetarianism versus veganism, which actually covered, if I recall, in a previous episode. Oh, maybe. You define some of these. So, yeah, we you should go back to find that episode if that interests you. Sort of the history of all these terms.

Michelle: So one thing to start with in our primer, Kev, is that most tofu eaten in North America and worldwide today is not fermented.

Kevin: OK.

Michelle: I know from just some of my nutrition trainings, there is a belief among some of my colleagues that in Asia, a majority of the soy that is consumed is fermented and there is fermented soy, but it's actually not the staple. It's not the most commonly consumed. And in fact, if I'm not mistaken, the fermented soys are more of a bit of a delicacy that's served with alcohol. OK. Specifically. So it's not your common everyday cooking ingredient or cuisine.

Kevin: Which makes sense because just the process of fermenting would take time, just like a fine wine versus your regular weekday plonk. You know, it's it takes time and energy and effort. So a fermented tofu would be more expensive and more time consuming. So it wouldn't be your everyday run of the mill weekday tofu. Makes sense.

Michelle: Yeah, I would think so, because if these, you know, YouTubers are accurate and they make it look so easy, like it really, even though it's a bit persnickety, it doesn't really take that long. I would I would rather, you know, spend 20 minutes making my own tofu than waiting, however, many days for it to ferment properly.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: Yeah. So anyway, so I thought that we would just kind of go through the most common types of tofu that people can work with.

Kevin: Yeah, that that would help because that always confuses me. You've got the silken versus the soft versus the extra firm versus the blah, blah, blah. There's so many different varieties, it seems, and I never quite know what to use and what what's safe for what type of recipe or what type of use.

Michelle: Right on, because this is certainly where I went wrong. That's where I think most people went wrong.

Kevin: If you've ever had a tofu accident, this is likely where it all started. Had the wrong type of tofu for the wrong type of recipe.

Michelle: Right. So basically, the the main difference between the types is the amount of water content. And I think that just makes sense. If you've ever looked at a silken tofu versus a block of firm or extra firm tofu, there's much less water content. Silken tofu is like custard like and it's creamy, it's spoonable. And that would be like the type that you saw made into a custard type dish, right? The dessert. So it's completely unpressed. It has the highest water content and it can be used in smoothies, creamy sauces, dressings. So you should actually experiment, Kev, with your Caesar salad dressing recipe, because it's a very common ingredient in plant-based Caesar salad recipe to use silken tofu for texture.

Kevin: Well, you know what I'll do? Now I've moved on from my Caesar salad dressing. Understand, I mean, we haven't talked about this for a while, but it's absolutely perfect and I'm not developing it anymore. I've put that away. It's time to move on. So now I'm moving on.

Michelle: Maybe you need to make ranch dressing then.

Kevin: That's exactly what I'm on to now. Ranch is my next mountain to climb. My next hurdle, whatever you want to call it.

Michelle: You've been holding out on me, dude. I didn't know this.

Kevin: Well, we haven't talked salad for a while.

Michelle: So then soft tofu for your PTSD is slightly firmer than silken, but it's still very delicate. It still has a fairly high water content and it's very common in Korean stews, in hot pots. It is a good product to use in light stir fries, but you want to add it at the end, not at the beginning like I did.

Kevin: Or you disintegrate. Yes, I've done that too. Also, I think in another issue, another failed attempt, I think I've done that as well.

Michelle: Oh, let me tell you. My poor husband has been served so many bad meals in my process of experimentation, but he still loves me and my food has gotten good most of the time.

Kevin: So practice makes perfect.

Michelle: You can use soft tofu also to make like different types of spreads and dips and smooth purees as well. Then you move to the most commonly used products in our culture, and that is the medium firm or extra firm tofus.

Kevin: Those you see everywhere.

Michelle: Yeah. And, you know, sometimes for me, I don't know about you, Kevin, but for me, I will often just look for the firm and if all they have is the medium that day, then that's what I buy. And if all they have is the extra firm, I'm not really that fussed for the way that I use it because I tend to use it fairly formulaically unless I'm following a specific recipe. And so it doesn't really matter to me if it's medium and I needed to get rid of more of the moisture than I just press it. I guess I would say if I'm looking to make tofu scramble, I will prefer to use a medium over a firm or an extra firm because I don't need to press it because I'm going to make it a scramble. So I'm going to add moisture to it anyway.

Kevin: You want that moisture. Yeah, exactly.

Michelle: Yeah. But just for the listeners, that's that's the only difference. They tend to be, you know, medium firm and extra firm. The only difference is the water content. And they tend to be a bit meatier. They tend to be denser. They hold their shape well. They don't disintegrate. They're not watery.

Kevin: These are the ones you can cut with a knife and you can actually easily cube it and they hold their shape.

Michelle: Yeah, you can make tofu steaks, tofu cubes, you can bake them, you can fry them, you can deep fry them. So you mentioned what you were trying to replicate in the restaurant. One tip that I have learned, and maybe you've learned this along the way too, but I'll mention it in case the listeners like it. I've learned two key things about seasoning the tofu and then trying to produce a certain texture where you want it crispy on the outside and softer on the inside. The first thing is marinating tofu is kind of a myth. Okay. You can't really marinate your tofu and get the same result as if you're marinating a piece of meat because the meat will over time absorb those flavors and it will increase the depth of those flavors over the longer that you marinate. You will get a very surface level of marinating from your tofu. You're much better off to coat with your oil first or you could use, I don't know, like harissa paste or something if you didn't want to add oil. That's easy to buy. Harissa's got some nice spice in it. Then you will add your corn starch or potato starch or something to coat it with afterwards. And then if you want to have a crisp on the outside and soft on the inside, you will do the oil or the harissa coating first. Then you will coat it in a starch. And then you will either deep fry it or lightly pan fire it in a bit of oil to get the crisp on the outside. And then it will keep it softer on the inside. Or you can just straight up deep fry it if you're into deep frying. Sometimes I see recipes where they'll put the spice mixture and the marinade and the corn starch and everything all in one mix and you dip your tofu in that or you try to soak it in that. You see that a ton.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michelle: And then you fry it. You're not going to get that result.

Kevin: Okay. Interesting.

Michelle: You need to put on the coating substance first and then coat it in the starch after and then make sure that there is a bit of oil. Okay. Right. And if you look to our previous episodes, it's not like all oil is completely for the devil. It's just watch the amount of oil that you're using and focus on more monounsaturated, unsaturated fats and stay away from the saturated fats and just don't make sure that you have tons and gobs of it slathered in your food. But if you're going to get a particular recipe, there's nothing wrong with deep frying or doing some light frying in oil of your tofu.

Kevin: Right. And a great solution. I have tried this before with success with tofu. It works amazing in an air fryer. Yes, we do that a lot, which is a great way to not use too much oil. And the only thing you have to remember for those who want to try it at home, make sure you don't crowd them. And I know every recipe says, don't crowd your air fryer. And I always do. But with tofu, because you want the air to circulate 360 degrees around each individual square of tofu. Yeah. And it turns out really well. And I find it cooks well because you're not moving the tofu. Unlike if you're frying it in a pan or something, you're moving it and turning it, which can, especially if it's a softer tofu, it can start to crumble and fall apart. These nice, beautiful squares you've got if you're using a softer tofu. So an air fryer works really, really well for that.

Michelle: I would say for like an entry point, especially I want to start using making tofu and I don't know what to do and I'm nervous to cook with it. It's this really stress-free way to do it. And do you know what I do? This is a complete, to your point, complete no oil recipe for me. I will chop up the block of tofu into small squares with lots of surface area. And then I won't even put any harissa or oil or anything on it. I will just add the spices on it while it's wet. And I will press it a bit if I'm going to put it in an air fryer to try to get the moisture out of it. But it's still moist on the outside, right? Because you've just cut it up and you've drained the water off it. But then I will put in, I don't know, smoked paprika and cumin, maybe some curry, maybe some garlic. And I just shake it all up in a bowl and coat it. And I'll often batch cook it. So I'll use two blocks of tofu and do this. And sorry, I will crowd. I will dump it all in my air fryer, but I don't know if your air fryer is different than mine. Mine, you have to stop and shake it and move them around periodically while it's air frying. So they move around.

Kevin: Oh, see, no, mine doesn't. So long as it's got space. If I'm doing vegetables or something, I'm overcrowding it. Yes, you have to shake it after every couple of minutes. But with tofu, if you leave space, you don't have to do that.

Michelle: The only reason I do it is because I try to batch cook a whole bunch. And then I'll put those in little containers. And then they're just always available in the fridge if I want to pull them out and throw them in a Buddha bowl, or I want to pull them out and toss them on a salad. Or I just, sometimes I just snack on them. Like I'll just grab a handful of them and I'll eat them as a snack.

Kevin: So just to your point earlier, you said if the listeners want a nice, easy, entry-level recipe.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: And you suggested that. So just wait, because you haven't heard the recipe I'm bringing to the table. If you want an entry-level, no-fail recipe, we're going to get to that.

Michelle: Okay. Well, should I go on or do you want to bring it? Well, let's finish off. It's going to leave us hanging, people. Yeah, exactly.

Kevin: Yeah, come on. You got to earn it.

Michelle: I can't stand it.

Kevin: So we've covered off silken, soft, medium, firm, and extra firm. So are there other kinds?

Michelle: Yeah. I don't know that I've seen this, but apparently there is a super firm.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: It's a product, I think, of the high protein phase. Oh, okay. So it's very heavily processed with minimal water. Very, very dense. The texture of chicken breast.

Kevin: I've seen pressed tofu.

Michelle: Heavily pressed. Heavily pressed. Yes.

Kevin: Heavily pressed. Okay. Okay.

Michelle: That's all that really difference is between these is how much they're pressed, how much water's in them. Right? Yeah. Because when they make, if you've ever watched a video of how they make the tofu, it's stored in water. It's made in buckets of water. I was watching a short YouTube video of the folks at the Oregon, the oldest one in the United States. They've got like rubber boots in their facility going between these machines, slopping around in water and dealing with these big buckets of water and putting their made tofu block in the buckets.

Kevin: At the Asian grocery store, two blocks from me, I can buy fresh tofu. Oh, you're so lucky. In the refrigerated section, they've got those big, what are they, like 40 gallon buckets? What are the huge like- Yeah, exactly. They've got the huge 40 gallon buckets full of, it looks like, what is it? Rennet water. It looks like what you store ricotta cheese in. It's just a slightly cloudy water and blocks maybe an inch square by an inch square, cubes of super fresh tofu.

Michelle: Oh, you're so lucky. I wish we had that clear.

Kevin: I've never bought it because I'm terrified of, because it's definitely medium to soft, I would say. So I'm a little scared to use it, but maybe, maybe, maybe this episode will encourage me.

Michelle: So that would be perfect to try to do what I just suggested in order to get it crispy on the outside and soft on the inside. That'd be so yummy.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll try that. Okay. Maybe I'll try that.

Michelle: Let me just touch on this really briefly because I can't say that I've really worked with these or even noticed them for sale, but there are other like altered fresh tofu styles. One is a firmer Japanese or Chinese authentic style of pressed tofu. Probably, maybe you would have that in Chinatown. I don't know. And then you can, like very popular in China and Japan is being able to just buy fried tofu or tofu puffs, tofu cutlets. Yes.

Kevin: I have some tofu puffs in my freezer right now. You do? They are small little cubes, maybe a half inch by a half inch that are pre-fried. And then I can just throw those in the air fryer and they come out perfectly. And they're so easy. So, so, so, so, so easy. It's basically pre-fried for you. Oh, cool. Again, this is from an Asian grocery store. Right. You have to search for them a little bit, but if you're lucky enough to have one close by, check it out. They're so convenient and so easy. And it takes all the hard work out of it.

Michelle: I bet your Asian grocer also has the tofu skins. I would like to find those because those are like in dim sum rolls. Yeah.

Kevin: Oh, I've never heard of those.

Michelle: They call it Yuba tofu skin.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: It's made from the film on the heated soy milk and it's also not fermented, but it comes in sheets. And then you can use it in stir fries or add it to your soups, but I'm interested in doing it for dim sum rolls. Okay. Yeah.

Kevin: It almost sounds a bit like seitan.

Michelle: Yeah, maybe.

Kevin: I don't know. I've never seen it, but I've never looked for it. I'm going to have to check it out next time.

Michelle: Yeah. So you will have seen this in your grocery store. Smoked tofu you can buy now. Apparently you can buy, I'm not sure the marketing appeal of this, but stinky tofu.

Kevin: Okay. I'll pass on that.

Michelle: I think that's a more traditional. And there is, apparently from Burma, they have their own unique type of tofu called Burmese tofu.

Kevin: Okay.

Michelle: I don't know if you had that when you went to Burma, right?

Kevin: I think I might have because they have a lot of fish curries and there was tofu very often in the fish curries.

Michelle: Probably.

Kevin: I'm trying to think back. So, I mean, I didn't notice that it tasted particularly different, I have to admit, but I wasn't really looking for a difference in the type of tofu, to be honest.

Michelle: So I'm glad that you mentioned it being an ingredient in a fish curry, for example, because I think in Asian cuisine, tofu wasn't an ingredient that was instead of meat.

Kevin: No, not at all.

Michelle: It was a compliment. It was another ingredient, another source of protein and inexpensive and easy for them to make.

Kevin: Right. And another texture. Right. Because so much of Asian cuisine, even though we think of a stir fry, just being everything thrown together, the different textures can make or break a good stir fry. And tofu would just add another texture to offset maybe some of the meats or some of the vegetables or the noodles or the rice or whatever's in there that gives a nice creamy texture or maybe a firmer texture, whatever. So yeah, it makes sense.

Michelle: So I use it in my cooking as my preferred choice of protein source for that dish. Usually. And the texture and also all of the wonderful phytoestrogens in soy. One of the great things about tofu as a soy product is it's very cancer protective, particularly breast cancer protective for for women. That's pretty clear. That old debunked science that said if you've got an estrogenic cancer, you should avoid soy products. That's been completely debunked time and time and time again. It's the same case. We've talked about this before. People only remember the original headline. They don't remember the retraction or the update on the site design. But I've even been to conference with a radiology oncologist giving us a lecture on healthiest diets for cancer prevention and living with cancer, the most protective and supportive foods to eat. And soy is always number one because a phytoestrogen is very, very different than the estrogen produced by humans or that we get externally through the hormones of an eating an animal. And it will actually block the absorption of those harmful estrogens by fitting. That's why it's called a phytoestrogen because it's not really an estrogen, but they call it a phytoestrogen because it fits in that receptor site, I think. So it's very protective. And it's also for perimenopausal and menopausal women. It's very beneficial to help improve our tolerance of these symptoms. Right. And it's a great source of protein. It rivals the protein levels of meat, like the highest protein tofu would be the ones with the least water content. So the super firm has 20, 24 grams of protein per 100 grams. And then, you know, the silken and the soft tofu would have the least amount of only but still four to seven grams per 100 grams. So there's still some protein in there. And then you've got everything in between. So which is why when you add it to a smoothie, like it's one great way to boost the protein in your in your smoothie. You know, I think getting away from this idea, this mental idea that tofu is a meat substitute, I think that's a harmful thought process because you're never going to make tofu look like meat. You're never going to make tofu taste like meat. So like, let's not pretend it is. Let's let's let it be what it is. And it's it's just another it can have more of a meaty texture to it that can be very pleasing to add to the dish. But it can't become what it's not. Right. But I do call it the playdough of food, though. You can kind of make it into whatever you want it to be.

Kevin: Yeah. Well, again, because you don't know the recipe that I'm bringing to this episode.

Michelle: All right. OK, I'm ready. I can't wait anymore. You've got to tell me the recipe. You can't keep teasing me like this.

Kevin: OK. Was that our segue? OK. That was our segue. So this is not the recipe for a particular dish, you know, a finished recipe or anything. This is more just a way, my preferred way, how I discovered to cook tofu that then you can add it to so many different recipes.

Michelle: All right. I'm excited.

Kevin: It's basically modeled after shredded pork. For those who don't know, like shredded pork is an Asian ingredient that it's it's basically pork that's been shredded, like very fine, fine piece of pork that have then been fried and crisped up. And then you can add that on to, you know, either as a either as a texture topping or as a protein in and of itself to a stir fry or a soup or you name it, noodle dish, anything. So I found a way to make amazing shredded tofu. And it's and it's super easy and it's pretty much fail safe because I've made it many, many, many times and it's always turned out amazingly and very few ingredients. So you start. So I always start. I always buy the pressed tofu, mainly because it's available in my store and I'm lazy.

Michelle: You mean the super, super firm stuff that's already completely pressed?

Kevin: It's actually called pressed tofu.

Michelle: Yeah. So that's probably the same thing.

Kevin: Yeah. All that is, I think it's just the extra firm tofu that's been pressed a little bit longer. It's very hard.

Michelle: And just for the listener's benefit, the only reason you're pressing the tofu is get the extra moisture out if you need the moisture out for what you're doing. And you don't have to go and buy a tofu press, like just put it on, put it in a paper towel or in a tea towel on a firm surface like your counter or a cutting board and then put like a heavy book on top of it or a big jar of something and just let it let it sit there and press. Or you can just shove on it. I sometimes just like press on it myself when it's wrapped up in a paper towel.

Kevin: Yeah. What I do is I just wrap it. If I can't find the, or before I discovered this pressed tofu, I just buy extra firm tofu, wrap it in a paper towel, put it on a flat plate, and then I take a pot, fill the pot full of water.

Michelle: Yeah.

Kevin: And just place the pot full of water on top of the tofu for maybe half hour, 45 minutes.

Michelle: Yeah. Well, you're even more patient than me. I only let it sit there for like 10 minutes or I just haul on it and push it out myself.

Kevin: Well, for this particular recipe, you do want it to be fairly dry.

Michelle: Okay.

Kevin: So for this, it's worth a little bit more time pressing it down. If you don't have access to the pre-pressed tofu, just take extra firm tofu, wrap it in paper towel, find something heavy, like a pot full of water or something. And you can just leave it in the fridge underneath the pot for half hour, 45 minutes or so. And then you'll bring it out and you'll find that the paper towel is evenly damp and the tofu will be a little bit firmer to the touch. So once you've got that, then you take a cheese grater and grate it on the largest side. Yeah. To make it shred. Yeah. The shredded. And you grate it, just like you grate a carrot or watch out for your knuckles. I have lost many, many, many pieces of skin from my knuckles. There's been little pieces of skin in my recipes sometimes. And you grate it all down. And then what you do is throw it all in a bowl and add a little bit of soy sauce, rice vinegar. And if you want to get really, really fancy, and you can find it, black rice vinegar is amazing. It's got a little bit more of a, almost like an alcoholic tang. It's not alcoholic, but it's almost got like an alcoholic tang to it. It disappears into the food. Don't worry. But it's a little bit deeper.

Michelle: It's almost like using a wine reduction.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a deeper flavor than just regular rice vinegar.

Michelle: From what you're describing, I would like to put a couple of drops of sesame oil in there, just for a little bit of flavor enhancer.

Kevin: You could. You could. Absolutely. So for one package of extra firm tofu or pressed tofu, it's one tablespoon of light soy sauce. I use sodium reduced soy sauce, but that's just me. One tablespoon of the rice vinegar. And then you add just some onion powder, garlic powder, some dried ginger. Yummy. And then just mix it all up together and then get a frying pan. I have one of those spray bottles of avocado oil. You know, it's like an aerosol spray can of avocado oil. Give it a few sprays or just like a little small glug. You don't need a lot of oil and then fry it up. And what you want to do is when you put the tofu in the hot oil, just flatten it down evenly and just let it sit and be patient because you want it to crisp up on the bottom. So it's almost like you're making like a latke or something or caramelized onions where you don't want to be constantly stirring it. You want it to caramelize a little bit. So just keep your eye on it. You're frying it on medium heat. Maybe just stir it every once in a while so that all of the pieces sort of touch the bottom. And basically you'll know when it's done because you'll see it start to crisp up. You'll see it starting to get a really nice brown color and it'll dry up a little bit. And once it's done, it takes maybe 10 to 15 minutes or so. Not that long. And then just take it out, let it cool down on a plate or something, and then it's ready to add into a stir fry, into a soup, onto a noodle dish, any way you want.

Michelle: That sounds like another ingredient like the way that I use when I'm lazy, when I use the air fryer, that you could just do a big batch of that and just keep them ready to add into whatever you're making, whatever you want to add it to.

Kevin: Well, that was the next point I was going to make. This freezes amazingly.

Michelle: Awesome.

Kevin: So you can do, I usually do like a pound or whatever the average size of a tofu block is, a block, whatever that is.

Michelle: I think it's like 420 grams or something like that.

Kevin: Yeah. So plus or minus a pound.

Michelle: And I think that includes the water weight when they measure that. Probably.

Kevin: But this is, since I buy the pressed tofu, there's almost no water in there or even for extra firm. Once it's cool, you can just throw the shredded tofu, like the fried shredded tofu into a small Tupperware container, throw it in the freezer. You can just thaw it in the microwave for 30 seconds or a minute when you want to use it. And it's so easy. I've made it many, many, many times. I've never had an issue with it. And to your point earlier, it doesn't replace meat. It doesn't taste like meat. No, but it's got a really nice umami flavor, but it's got like a meaty texture. It's got that texture. It's got that slight chewiness. So it's not that bad. Like it's, it's, it's a nice substitute that you don't feel that you're, you know, a million miles away from meat. Like I've served it to meat eaters and they haven't noticed.

Michelle: That's awesome. That's one of my favorite things to do is to hide tofu in things.

Kevin: The minute you say it's got tofu, people sometimes like get their backs up, but if they don't know, then it's like, Oh, this is really good. How did you make this shredded pork?

Michelle: That's what I'll tell family members when they have my lasagna, they'll go, Oh, what's in the middle of that? I'll go, it's ricotta. And they'll go, Oh, and then I, if they don't ask and I don't tell, I just say, Oh, it's ricotta.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. They don't need to know.

Michelle: It's not exactly that I'm lying to them. It's just that I'm not, you know, I'm not elaborating on the ingredients.

Kevin: Exactly. You're omitting a few details. That's all that's allowed. So that is my recipe.

Michelle: The tofu ricotta is just simply a combination of a half a cup of raw cashews that were soaked and you blend that up with a block of tofu, some lemon juice, some vegetable broth, a bit of garlic, nutritional yeast, basil, salt and pepper in the Vitamix. So I just find that when you toss all that in the Vitamix, you just have to gradually add the veggie broth until you get the consistency that allows it to blend well. When I just made my batches of lasagna, I made a gigantic batch of that ricotta so that I had a lot. That same recipe you can use to make stuffed pasta shells, lots of other things. You can dollop it on a curry stew, vegetable stew. You can, it's, I mean, tell me what you don't want to love a dollop of ricotta on. What's great about it is that often veggie lasagnas are very runny. Yes. They don't hang together that well and they look nice and they taste great, but they're kind of, but, but when you have this layer of ricotta in the middle of it, it actually gels the whole thing together.

Kevin: It's the glue. Yeah. Yeah. That normally, I mean, cause that's normally what the cheese would do. It glues it together. I'm super hungry. We shouldn't be.

Michelle: I am starving now after this episode. Oh my gosh.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. So there we go. No reason not to experiment with tofu now. Yeah. And what I'd really like to hear from our noobs is I would love to hear your fails.

Michelle: And your recipes, if you have a really great one.

Kevin: No, but the fails are more, no, but the fails are more fun. But I'd love you to go onto Facebook.

Michelle: Kevin just wants you to make him feel good about himself.

Kevin: Exactly. Exactly. I would like to know that I'm not the only person who has failed miserably multiple, multiple times with tofu. So reach out to us over email at n the number four n o o b s at gmail.com or Facebook at facebook.com slash nutrition for noobs and send us your fails. And I guess your recipes, but mainly your fails. And until then, thank you for listening and eat your greens.

Michelle: Wait a minute.

Kevin: No joke. Oh, my God. Yes. Joe. Oh, my God. I got ahead of myself. Okay. Phew. It's time. Hey, Michelle, it's time for the dad joke. Finally. Finally. So what did the T say when it got to the police station?

Michelle: The T, the T E A.

Kevin: Yes.

Michelle: Oh, what did the T say when it got to the police station?

Kevin: I've been mugged.

Michelle: Oh, my gosh.

Kevin: That's cute. And the second one, a bonus one. How does a penguin build its home?

Michelle: I don't know.

Kevin: It glues it together.

Michelle: I don't get it. Penguin glue. What? Oh, my gosh. It glues it together. Oh, that's such a groaner.

Kevin: That is particularly bad. Okay. So now can I say it? Can I say it now?

Michelle: Sure.

Kevin: Sure. Eat your greens.

Michelle: And be real, everyone.

Kevin: I totally forgot that I hadn't done the joke. Oh, my God. You can cut that out. This has been Nutrition for Noobs. We hope you're a bit more enlightened about how your fantastic and complicated body works with the food you put into it. If you have a question or a topic you'd like Michelle to discuss, drop us a line at n4noobs at gmail.com. That's the letter N, the number four, N-O-O-B-S at gmail.com. If you haven't already, you can subscribe to the podcast on whatever your favorite platform might be. Also, please consider leaving a review or telling your friends. That's the best way to spread the word. We'll see you next time with another interesting topic. The views and opinions expressed on Nutrition for Noobs are those of the hosts. It is not intended to be a substitute for medical, nutritional, or health advice. Listeners should seek a personal consultation with a qualified practitioner if they have any concerns or before commencing any actions mentioned in the podcast.